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 Post subject: How come....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:27 am 
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I hear all the time about the empty stands at NASCAR and the dwindling ratings....but no one mentions the same issues for the NFL... opening day TV down 17% and many of the stadiums less then half full.... Maybe they'll be going the way of NASCAR....or maybe they'll go to the old points system and you guys can quit wanking about that.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:12 am 
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I feel much the same way about the NFL as I do NASCAR. I've been with the NFL much longer than NASCAR, e.g., 42 years v. 25.

I've mentioned the NFL quite a few times over in HT.

They can kiss my butt as well. NASCAR wanted to be like the NFL, what they screwed up is that they were like the NFL when they were regional. That's what made them unique, but they sold out their heritage for wider appeal and it blew up in their face. Football is a very TV friendly sport. Racing is not.

NASCAR never figured out that the secret to their success was that they were like no other national sport. And most of that was because of their southern roots.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:08 am 
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I complain about the NFL more than I do about Francecar. Do you go to NFL themed boards? Do they complain about Francecar there?

I'm as big or bigger football fan than anyone, but I watched 1 game last season, and that was only because I was a guest at a home that was watching it at Thanksgiving.

I haven't seen any games this season.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:10 am 
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jlb wrote:

NASCAR never figured out that the secret to their success was that they were like no other national sport. And most of that was because of their southern roots.


Racists!

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:05 am 
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Not just that RacerX, but for a long time now whether it be NASCAR, or football (college and pro) I'm tired of tuning in and being lectured to. Preached at. Talked down to. By nothing more than the equivalent of high paid social justice warriors. It's much worse in football than it is in NASCAR, but NASCAR is sure trying hard to get there (NFL "standards")....

I just want to watch a football game for a couple of hours. Or a race.

I don't want to be preached to. I can go to church if I want to hear a sermon.

eta

Speaking of football, I have yet to watch a pro or college game this season. I don't see that trend shifting into reverse anytime soon. It's still weird because for the better part of my life since I was nine years old I always looked forward to football season. Until the last two seasons or thereabouts.

I'll listen to the Dolphins' game on Sirius every Sunday. If they're on I may watch, but I got to be honest here. I thoroughly enjoy listening to Jimmie, Joe and Bob on Sirius much more than I do the social justice jokes that call the games on TV. Those guys (radio) are old Dolphins, and Bob holds a special spot in my life going back to the undefeated season :rok:

I was 12 years old and my "journey" as a Miami fan had started a bit over a year earlier while watching what is still the longest NFL game ever played. My, but football was so different back then. The world was a quieter, bigger one as well. The seeds of the ugliness we live with today had just been planted, so the portents of a darker future were everywhere, but it seemed like people just had a better grip when it came to working things out. The future looked promising.

In so many ways, it didn't turn out that way. And unless I'm to be misunderstood, I'm not talking about progress. Because what we live with now, it's a lot of things. But it ain't progress.

And to circle back, that's where NASCAR totally and completely screwed the pooch. And as I've maintained for the better part of 16 years, it began (in earnest) in the immediate aftermath of Dale's death.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:24 am 
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In case anybody not comprehend what I (and RacerX) are getting at, aks yourselfs a question. I don't know that X looks at things quite the way I do, but we do drive the same road I think. Have any of you noticed over the last ten years the mad rush to remake (reboot if you wish) classic movies or TV shows?

Why are the most popular movies centrally themed on Super Heroes (Avengers, Captain America, Batman, Superman, etc., etc.)?

People are looking for answers, is my take.

Has anybody ever given thought to that? And if you have given thought to it, have you followed up the thought with the question.... Why?

Just meandering. Sorry for taking up y'alls time :D

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Here is a perfect example of why NASCAR is screwing the pooch vis-a-vis the audience they claim to covet.

Network special sports channels. I don't have them. I did have them, along with 50-60 other channels we rarely ever watched. ESPN drives that package, the cost that is. For us, that was an additional $70 per month.

That's a lot of money for, basically, two channels that guarantee I can see every race if I choose. So, to watch NASCAR (because that's all we really utilized with that sports package) comes to $840 per year.

That's expensive. But that's the way they're going. The first race of "the playoffs" starts in less than an hour and I won't even be able to tune it in, were I so inclined.

The major networks are over the air and free. But there ain't no racing going on there, and there hasn't been for the better part of the last three months.

Compare that price for convenience (living room at home) to my particular season ticket package at Bristol. Four races, plus the other little freebies they throw in was $507 last year.

Ummmm.... sitting at home to watch a race isn't as convenient (read cheap) as it used to be, if you look at it from my particular perspective :eek:

I could get into what Bristol did to try to get people in the seats for last month's race. Dramatically lowering ticket prices prior and day of race. I could get into how my grandkids went to see their first race for free, and had we wanted to take them Saturday night it would have been $10 per. I could also get into how not one phone call, letter or offer for a discount on my packages has, as of this posting, arrived yet. I could get into the fact that I attended 43 straight races at Bristol over the last 21 years. I could get into the fact that Jeff Gordon had 47 starts at Bristol and I saw the last 43.

I could get into all of that but I won't. :wave:

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Last edited by jlb on Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:56 pm 
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If I tune in for a race, I want to see who covers the total distance in the fastest time.

I don't want to see the race stopped and started and participants being rearranged during the race.

That goes for a season also. I don't care if the NFL has playoffs, NASCAR isn't NFL.


If it's so complicated that when someone breaks the rules that you can't clearly explain what rule they broke, it's too complicated.
When everyone breaks the rules, it's too complicated.
When you stop a race a couple of times for stages, it's too contrived.
When you stop a race for no seeming reason other than to "complete it under green", it's too contrived.

Countdown to when the races are delayed for "instant replay rulings". Oh yeah, nevermind, it's already happening.

KISS, stupid.

And when you support a "cause", often you're going to alienate another "cause". Stick to sports, not politics and "causes".

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:17 pm 
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RacerX wrote:
If I tune in for a race, I want to see who covers the total distance in the fastest time.

I don't want to see the race stopped and started and participants being rearranged during the race.

That goes for a season also. I don't care if the NFL has playoffs, NASCAR isn't NFL.


If it's so complicated that when someone breaks the rules that you can't clearly explain what rule they broke, it's too complicated.
When everyone breaks the rules, it's too complicated.
When you stop a race a couple of times for stages, it's too contrived.
When you stop a race for no seeming reason other than to "complete it under green", it's too contrived.

Countdown to when the races are delayed for "instant replay rulings". Oh yeah, nevermind, it's already happening.

KISS, stupid.

And when you support a "cause", often you're going to alienate another "cause". Stick to sports, not politics and "causes".



I like the stages, keeps everyone racing not riding for the whole program because the points count... I don't really care who gets them, I care that they all try really really hard to get them, creates a better product for me the viewer...

I like the Chase/playoff format... I hate seeing JJ have the championship locked up in August and we spend the rest of the year trying to figure out whos going to get second.... this way, not only do you not know whose going to win, but you don't even know whose going to be in it till very late in the season...

On the rules, I agree 100%... when they flag a rule, tell us (with pictures if necessary) what rule was broken... I understand when a lug nut is loose, its the under car stuff I'd like to know more about...

And the cause to some degree we agree, but I don't listen to them that much so I don't usually know what cause they'd be pushing...

For the record, I think Jeff Gordon is by far the best play by play announcer in NASCAR today with Dale Jarrett a close second...

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:57 pm 
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mudslinger47 wrote:
RacerX wrote:
If I tune in for a race, I want to see who covers the total distance in the fastest time.

I don't want to see the race stopped and started and participants being rearranged during the race.

That goes for a season also. I don't care if the NFL has playoffs, NASCAR isn't NFL.


If it's so complicated that when someone breaks the rules that you can't clearly explain what rule they broke, it's too complicated.
When everyone breaks the rules, it's too complicated.
When you stop a race a couple of times for stages, it's too contrived.
When you stop a race for no seeming reason other than to "complete it under green", it's too contrived.

Countdown to when the races are delayed for "instant replay rulings". Oh yeah, nevermind, it's already happening.

KISS, stupid.

And when you support a "cause", often you're going to alienate another "cause". Stick to sports, not politics and "causes".



I like the stages, keeps everyone racing not riding for the whole program because the points count... I don't really care who gets them, I care that they all try really really hard to get them, creates a better product for me the viewer...

I like the Chase/playoff format... I hate seeing JJ have the championship locked up in August and we spend the rest of the year trying to figure out whos going to get second.... this way, not only do you not know whose going to win, but you don't even know whose going to be in it till very late in the season...

On the rules, I agree 100%... when they flag a rule, tell us (with pictures if necessary) what rule was broken... I understand when a lug nut is loose, its the under car stuff I'd like to know more about...

And the cause to some degree we agree, but I don't listen to them that much so I don't usually know what cause they'd be pushing...

For the record, I think Jeff Gordon is by far the best play by play announcer in NASCAR today with Dale Jarrett a close second...


There is a very good chance that Truex, Jr. has the championship locked up already.

But maybe a pit road speeding violation, or a technical violation of a rule NASCAR can't explain will lead to a debris caution finish at Homestead and give Jimmy his 8th title. Or maybe Kyle will get his second of who knows how many are yet to come. IDK :dunno:

I got news for you and you won't like it. The year Dale Earnhardt won his 7th title, he clinched at Rockingham on 10/23/94. There were still two races to go, and we had tickets for the finale at Atlanta, held on 11/13/94. That race at Atlanta that year was my daughter's second race, and her (our) first in a grandstand.

You know what I remember about that day, other than it was a beautiful sunny day after a very cold night sleeping in our van? Mark Martin won the race. Earnhardt finished second. The place was sold out and the grandstands were full.

By your logic, all of those people at Atlanta that day had no good reason to be there. But, yet, there they were. The place was full. I know. I was there.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:10 am 
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jlb wrote:
mudslinger47 wrote:
RacerX wrote:
If I tune in for a race, I want to see who covers the total distance in the fastest time.

I don't want to see the race stopped and started and participants being rearranged during the race.

That goes for a season also. I don't care if the NFL has playoffs, NASCAR isn't NFL.


If it's so complicated that when someone breaks the rules that you can't clearly explain what rule they broke, it's too complicated.
When everyone breaks the rules, it's too complicated.
When you stop a race a couple of times for stages, it's too contrived.
When you stop a race for no seeming reason other than to "complete it under green", it's too contrived.

Countdown to when the races are delayed for "instant replay rulings". Oh yeah, nevermind, it's already happening.

KISS, stupid.

And when you support a "cause", often you're going to alienate another "cause". Stick to sports, not politics and "causes".



I like the stages, keeps everyone racing not riding for the whole program because the points count... I don't really care who gets them, I care that they all try really really hard to get them, creates a better product for me the viewer...

I like the Chase/playoff format... I hate seeing JJ have the championship locked up in August and we spend the rest of the year trying to figure out whos going to get second.... this way, not only do you not know whose going to win, but you don't even know whose going to be in it till very late in the season...

On the rules, I agree 100%... when they flag a rule, tell us (with pictures if necessary) what rule was broken... I understand when a lug nut is loose, its the under car stuff I'd like to know more about...

And the cause to some degree we agree, but I don't listen to them that much so I don't usually know what cause they'd be pushing...

For the record, I think Jeff Gordon is by far the best play by play announcer in NASCAR today with Dale Jarrett a close second...


There is a very good chance that Truex, Jr. has the championship locked up already.

But maybe a pit road speeding violation, or a technical violation of a rule NASCAR can't explain will lead to a debris caution finish at Homestead and give Jimmy his 8th title. Or maybe Kyle will get his second of who knows how many are yet to come. IDK :dunno:

I got news for you and you won't like it. The year Dale Earnhardt won his 7th title, he clinched at Rockingham on 10/23/94. There were still two races to go, and we had tickets for the finale at Atlanta, held on 11/13/94. That race at Atlanta that year was my daughter's second race, and her (our) first in a grandstand.

You know what I remember about that day, other than it was a beautiful sunny day after a very cold night sleeping in our van? Mark Martin won the race. Earnhardt finished second. The place was sold out and the grandstands were full.

By your logic, all of those people at Atlanta that day had no good reason to be there. But, yet, there they were. The place was full. I know. I was there.


Cool, you got one year out of what 50? The point remains no one can lock up anything now...can't be done... Carl had a lock on it the years JJ got 7... but you forget that.... Its cool, you don't have to like it, I do and being faily selfish, that's good enough for me... and don't waste a bunch of time finding all the "close " championship finishes, cause you get my point just fine....

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:25 am 
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You've "watched for the racing don't care about points" for years, and now suddenly you care about points????

I watched the last few laps yesterday. I learned, according to one of the talking heads, it's "advantageous to have a fast car".

They keep improving the sport, and attendance and viewership keeps declining. I'm not sure how much more of their improvements the sport can take.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:18 am 
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mudslinger47 wrote:
jlb wrote:
mudslinger47 wrote:
RacerX wrote:
If I tune in for a race, I want to see who covers the total distance in the fastest time.

I don't want to see the race stopped and started and participants being rearranged during the race.

That goes for a season also. I don't care if the NFL has playoffs, NASCAR isn't NFL.


If it's so complicated that when someone breaks the rules that you can't clearly explain what rule they broke, it's too complicated.
When everyone breaks the rules, it's too complicated.
When you stop a race a couple of times for stages, it's too contrived.
When you stop a race for no seeming reason other than to "complete it under green", it's too contrived.

Countdown to when the races are delayed for "instant replay rulings". Oh yeah, nevermind, it's already happening.

KISS, stupid.

And when you support a "cause", often you're going to alienate another "cause". Stick to sports, not politics and "causes".



I like the stages, keeps everyone racing not riding for the whole program because the points count... I don't really care who gets them, I care that they all try really really hard to get them, creates a better product for me the viewer...

I like the Chase/playoff format... I hate seeing JJ have the championship locked up in August and we spend the rest of the year trying to figure out whos going to get second.... this way, not only do you not know whose going to win, but you don't even know whose going to be in it till very late in the season...

On the rules, I agree 100%... when they flag a rule, tell us (with pictures if necessary) what rule was broken... I understand when a lug nut is loose, its the under car stuff I'd like to know more about...

And the cause to some degree we agree, but I don't listen to them that much so I don't usually know what cause they'd be pushing...

For the record, I think Jeff Gordon is by far the best play by play announcer in NASCAR today with Dale Jarrett a close second...


There is a very good chance that Truex, Jr. has the championship locked up already.

But maybe a pit road speeding violation, or a technical violation of a rule NASCAR can't explain will lead to a debris caution finish at Homestead and give Jimmy his 8th title. Or maybe Kyle will get his second of who knows how many are yet to come. IDK :dunno:

I got news for you and you won't like it. The year Dale Earnhardt won his 7th title, he clinched at Rockingham on 10/23/94. There were still two races to go, and we had tickets for the finale at Atlanta, held on 11/13/94. That race at Atlanta that year was my daughter's second race, and her (our) first in a grandstand.

You know what I remember about that day, other than it was a beautiful sunny day after a very cold night sleeping in our van? Mark Martin won the race. Earnhardt finished second. The place was sold out and the grandstands were full.

By your logic, all of those people at Atlanta that day had no good reason to be there. But, yet, there they were. The place was full. I know. I was there.


Cool, you got one year out of what 50? The point remains no one can lock up anything now...can't be done... Carl had a lock on it the years JJ got 7... but you forget that.... Its cool, you don't have to like it, I do and being faily selfish, that's good enough for me... and don't waste a bunch of time finding all the "close " championship finishes, cause you get my point just fine....


I forgot nothing about last year, and I know the caution that bred the real cautions late in that race last year handed Johnson the title. I know that. I know Carl Edwards isn't racing anymore, and he's still well in his prime. Stop telling me I forget this, or forget that, just because I'm doing an effective job punching holes into your "NASCAR is great, NASCAR is wonderful, NASCAR is making a comeback, NASCAR is whatever" bubble.

NASCAR never had a problem selling out, well into the early 2000's. NASCAR's popularity exploded during the years Winston sponsored them, under the old point system, sometimes when champions were decided well before the end of the season. Tracks still sold out. People still ponied up the money and took themselves and their families to races.

Something happened to kill all of that. And I think most people have their own idea of what happened, but I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that this idiotic playoff concept has something to do with most of everybody's take on how NASCAR fell so hard.

I don't wish NASCAR to fail, but I'm not going to be sad when this Francecar perversion fully and completely blows up in their face. They killed what gave NASCAR their appeal. It was southern, that's what made it so damn good and so damn unique. Time marches on, but so do the consequences of some pretty stupid decisions.

Oh, and here's another part of it: I got my Bristol renewal in the mail, not 45 minutes ago. They want $507 for the privilege of sitting at their track for a 22nd year and carrying the title Season Ticket Holder when I can drive up on that Sunday morning next April, get to the track and probably get tickets for 20-30% off the cost of what they want me to pay by the deadline of December 1st.

Yeah.... NASCAR is brilliant alright.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:19 pm 
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RacerX wrote:
You've "watched for the racing don't care about points" for years, and now suddenly you care about points????

I watched the last few laps yesterday. I learned, according to one of the talking heads, it's "advantageous to have a fast car".

They keep improving the sport, and attendance and viewership keeps declining. I'm not sure how much more of their improvements the sport can take.


Your doing your best to obfuscate... I pointed out that I didn't care who got the points, it was the enhanced racing I enjoyed... And as I said before, I don't pay a lot of attention to the announcers... I don't know how to make it any more clear... :?

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:26 pm 
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jlb wrote:
mudslinger47 wrote:
jlb wrote:
mudslinger47 wrote:
RacerX wrote:
If I tune in for a race, I want to see who covers the total distance in the fastest time.

I don't want to see the race stopped and started and participants being rearranged during the race.

That goes for a season also. I don't care if the NFL has playoffs, NASCAR isn't NFL.


If it's so complicated that when someone breaks the rules that you can't clearly explain what rule they broke, it's too complicated.
When everyone breaks the rules, it's too complicated.
When you stop a race a couple of times for stages, it's too contrived.
When you stop a race for no seeming reason other than to "complete it under green", it's too contrived.

Countdown to when the races are delayed for "instant replay rulings". Oh yeah, nevermind, it's already happening.

KISS, stupid.

And when you support a "cause", often you're going to alienate another "cause". Stick to sports, not politics and "causes".



I like the stages, keeps everyone racing not riding for the whole program because the points count... I don't really care who gets them, I care that they all try really really hard to get them, creates a better product for me the viewer...

I like the Chase/playoff format... I hate seeing JJ have the championship locked up in August and we spend the rest of the year trying to figure out whos going to get second.... this way, not only do you not know whose going to win, but you don't even know whose going to be in it till very late in the season...

On the rules, I agree 100%... when they flag a rule, tell us (with pictures if necessary) what rule was broken... I understand when a lug nut is loose, its the under car stuff I'd like to know more about...

And the cause to some degree we agree, but I don't listen to them that much so I don't usually know what cause they'd be pushing...

For the record, I think Jeff Gordon is by far the best play by play announcer in NASCAR today with Dale Jarrett a close second...


There is a very good chance that Truex, Jr. has the championship locked up already.

But maybe a pit road speeding violation, or a technical violation of a rule NASCAR can't explain will lead to a debris caution finish at Homestead and give Jimmy his 8th title. Or maybe Kyle will get his second of who knows how many are yet to come. IDK :dunno:

I got news for you and you won't like it. The year Dale Earnhardt won his 7th title, he clinched at Rockingham on 10/23/94. There were still two races to go, and we had tickets for the finale at Atlanta, held on 11/13/94. That race at Atlanta that year was my daughter's second race, and her (our) first in a grandstand.

You know what I remember about that day, other than it was a beautiful sunny day after a very cold night sleeping in our van? Mark Martin won the race. Earnhardt finished second. The place was sold out and the grandstands were full.

By your logic, all of those people at Atlanta that day had no good reason to be there. But, yet, there they were. The place was full. I know. I was there.


Cool, you got one year out of what 50? The point remains no one can lock up anything now...can't be done... Carl had a lock on it the years JJ got 7... but you forget that.... Its cool, you don't have to like it, I do and being faily selfish, that's good enough for me... and don't waste a bunch of time finding all the "close " championship finishes, cause you get my point just fine....


I forgot nothing about last year, and I know the caution that bred the real cautions late in that race last year handed Johnson the title. I know that. I know Carl Edwards isn't racing anymore, and he's still well in his prime. Stop telling me I forget this, or forget that, just because I'm doing an effective job punching holes into your "NASCAR is great, NASCAR is wonderful, NASCAR is making a comeback, NASCAR is whatever" bubble.

Hate to tell you this, but I like NASCAR just fine, your punching into dough... I don't think I have ever said anything about a "come back".... I think the demographics is the biggest problem.. the ole guys are dying off...young people aren't necessarily into cars like we were or are...

NASCAR never had a problem selling out, well into the early 2000's. NASCAR's popularity exploded during the years Winston sponsored them, under the old point system, sometimes when champions were decided well before the end of the season. Tracks still sold out. People still ponied up the money and took themselves and their families to races.

And I still didn't like it.... ya know, we can disagree don't ya?

Something happened to kill all of that. And I think most people have their own idea of what happened, but I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that this idiotic playoff concept has something to do with most of everybody's take on how NASCAR fell so hard.

I don't wish NASCAR to fail, but I'm not going to be sad when this Francecar perversion fully and completely blows up in their face. They killed what gave NASCAR their appeal. It was southern, that's what made it so damn good and so damn unique. Time marches on, but so do the consequences of some pretty stupid decisions.


They'll survive just fine....just like NFL or Baseball or basket ball...

Oh, and here's another part of it: I got my Bristol renewal in the mail, not 45 minutes ago. They want $507 for the privilege of sitting at their track for a 22nd year and carrying the title Season Ticket Holder when I can drive up on that Sunday morning next April, get to the track and probably get tickets for 20-30% off the cost of what they want me to pay by the deadline of December 1st.

I don't go to the races, mostly because of expense and I get a better view from home....

Yeah.... NASCAR is brilliant alright.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:34 pm 
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mudslinger47 wrote:
jlb wrote:
mudslinger47 wrote:
jlb wrote:
mudslinger47 wrote:
RacerX wrote:
If I tune in for a race, I want to see who covers the total distance in the fastest time.

I don't want to see the race stopped and started and participants being rearranged during the race.

That goes for a season also. I don't care if the NFL has playoffs, NASCAR isn't NFL.


If it's so complicated that when someone breaks the rules that you can't clearly explain what rule they broke, it's too complicated.
When everyone breaks the rules, it's too complicated.
When you stop a race a couple of times for stages, it's too contrived.
When you stop a race for no seeming reason other than to "complete it under green", it's too contrived.

Countdown to when the races are delayed for "instant replay rulings". Oh yeah, nevermind, it's already happening.

KISS, stupid.

And when you support a "cause", often you're going to alienate another "cause". Stick to sports, not politics and "causes".



I like the stages, keeps everyone racing not riding for the whole program because the points count... I don't really care who gets them, I care that they all try really really hard to get them, creates a better product for me the viewer...

I like the Chase/playoff format... I hate seeing JJ have the championship locked up in August and we spend the rest of the year trying to figure out whos going to get second.... this way, not only do you not know whose going to win, but you don't even know whose going to be in it till very late in the season...

On the rules, I agree 100%... when they flag a rule, tell us (with pictures if necessary) what rule was broken... I understand when a lug nut is loose, its the under car stuff I'd like to know more about...

And the cause to some degree we agree, but I don't listen to them that much so I don't usually know what cause they'd be pushing...

For the record, I think Jeff Gordon is by far the best play by play announcer in NASCAR today with Dale Jarrett a close second...


There is a very good chance that Truex, Jr. has the championship locked up already.

But maybe a pit road speeding violation, or a technical violation of a rule NASCAR can't explain will lead to a debris caution finish at Homestead and give Jimmy his 8th title. Or maybe Kyle will get his second of who knows how many are yet to come. IDK :dunno:

I got news for you and you won't like it. The year Dale Earnhardt won his 7th title, he clinched at Rockingham on 10/23/94. There were still two races to go, and we had tickets for the finale at Atlanta, held on 11/13/94. That race at Atlanta that year was my daughter's second race, and her (our) first in a grandstand.

You know what I remember about that day, other than it was a beautiful sunny day after a very cold night sleeping in our van? Mark Martin won the race. Earnhardt finished second. The place was sold out and the grandstands were full.

By your logic, all of those people at Atlanta that day had no good reason to be there. But, yet, there they were. The place was full. I know. I was there.


Cool, you got one year out of what 50? The point remains no one can lock up anything now...can't be done... Carl had a lock on it the years JJ got 7... but you forget that.... Its cool, you don't have to like it, I do and being faily selfish, that's good enough for me... and don't waste a bunch of time finding all the "close " championship finishes, cause you get my point just fine....


I forgot nothing about last year, and I know the caution that bred the real cautions late in that race last year handed Johnson the title. I know that. I know Carl Edwards isn't racing anymore, and he's still well in his prime. Stop telling me I forget this, or forget that, just because I'm doing an effective job punching holes into your "NASCAR is great, NASCAR is wonderful, NASCAR is making a comeback, NASCAR is whatever" bubble.

Hate to tell you this, but I like NASCAR just fine, your punching into dough... I don't think I have ever said anything about a "come back".... I think the demographics is the biggest problem.. the ole guys are dying off...young people aren't necessarily into cars like we were or are...

NASCAR never had a problem selling out, well into the early 2000's. NASCAR's popularity exploded during the years Winston sponsored them, under the old point system, sometimes when champions were decided well before the end of the season. Tracks still sold out. People still ponied up the money and took themselves and their families to races.

And I still didn't like it.... ya know, we can disagree don't ya?

Something happened to kill all of that. And I think most people have their own idea of what happened, but I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that this idiotic playoff concept has something to do with most of everybody's take on how NASCAR fell so hard.

I don't wish NASCAR to fail, but I'm not going to be sad when this Francecar perversion fully and completely blows up in their face. They killed what gave NASCAR their appeal. It was southern, that's what made it so damn good and so damn unique. Time marches on, but so do the consequences of some pretty stupid decisions.


They'll survive just fine....just like NFL or Baseball or basket ball...

Oh, and here's another part of it: I got my Bristol renewal in the mail, not 45 minutes ago. They want $507 for the privilege of sitting at their track for a 22nd year and carrying the title Season Ticket Holder when I can drive up on that Sunday morning next April, get to the track and probably get tickets for 20-30% off the cost of what they want me to pay by the deadline of December 1st.

I don't go to the races, mostly because of expense and I get a better view from home....

Yeah.... NASCAR is brilliant alright.


The NFL is dead. They're trying to appease PC leftists. They're dead because parents are choosing other sports for their kids to play, diminishing the feeder systems that provide players for colleges and the pros. Oh, they'll survive but people are tuning out. Their ratings continue to slide, even this past weekend. Again.

People are tired of Hollywood. People are tired of moralizing politicians of all kinds, but especially libtards. People are tired of sports. They're just sick and tired of the whole thing and that's the vanguard NASCAR and the NFL are facing. People are tuning out. Why the hell do you think Trump was able to win the election? And no, politics should not be here for the most part, in this forum, but if folks can't see the connection between the political climate and what's happening in sports and entertainment, well, folks aren't paying attention. It doesn't really matter why at that point, does it?

With the way Bristol has went over the last few years, you would think there would be a discount on the ticket packages, especially for somebody who has been a dedicated purchaser for 21 years. But nope. Same price, same deadline. That's not only brain dead, that's out of touch with reality.

eta

Your old guys dying off analogy. The new guys are, for the most part, milquetoast. It's not a character assessment, it is the decades long march of political correctness. You don't need to spend $507 on season tickets to realize that you can go anywhere else and see that and for a whole lot less money. Hell, just tune into the news every night and you'll get myriad examples of what I'm talking about and you can do it in "the convenience" of your living room sitting on your ass and enjoying a cold one. And that's the rub, because I used to tune in to the NFL and NASCAR to get away from that shit.

And now, that shit is everywhere. I escape it with my morning cup of coffee, here in farm country, enjoying the deafening silence of country mornings.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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I have one regret with my experience with NASCAR, and that is that I didn't catch the fire about ten years earlier than I did. I would have loved to have come through all of the 80's following Dale's career. It's the only real regret I ever have had when it comes to racing. I catch it now when I can, and always find myself thinking: how much fun would that have been. I've met some pretty cool people through NASCAR, made some new friends.... not a few of them from this place and R1. Two others, whom I worked with and got to know quite well, have since passed. Time marches on, indeed it does.

And now we come to it, e.g. his son, Dale Earnhardt, Jr.

I never thought his career would end the way it looks like it's going to end, in mediocrity. It's sad to follow his progress this season, and I think that the fact that I can't watch most of the races since Charlotte in May is somewhat of a blessing. Never saw that coming.

I thought he would have a title or two by now, but then again his course in life changed back on that day in Daytona, what now seems like a lifetime ago.

Ahhh well, such are the ebbs and tides of life I reckon.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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Lotta guys have come and gone in NASCAR and not gotten Championships... I don't fault them for that, I always thought Mark Martin would get one, but nope and he was a heck of a racer... I never thought about Jr getting one after Sr was killed... I believed it weighted heavy on his psychological side... I think he did a good job and was loved by most of the fans... but he wasn't that great of a talent , upper third for sure but that's about it...


Young people today aren't gear heads... My grandson looking for a car is looking for a four door sedan, just like about every friend he has, has... They rarely wash their cars and keep them cleaned out enough to fit in them and that wasn't the way it was in our day... I have one Grandson into his car but that's about it... one of them would like to try his hand at racing, I guess we'll see....

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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I think jlb pretty much hit the nail on the head with all of his posts. Mudslinger, I know you love NASCAR and would never say a bad word about them, but when you look at ALL the posts here claiming NASCAR is dead and you are almost the lone holdout saying it's not, then that should tell you something. We aren't all wrong. Same way with NFL - ratings are declining quickly. I think politics has a lot to do with that, as well. I don't watch sports to have to listen to politics. Sports should be an escape from that, or it always has been for me. I'm currently working to boycott ESPN in my own little world just because I DON'T CARE what they think about Trump.

On that note, I will say this. Celebrities and sports jocks need to understand one thing. They have fans on both sides of the political arena. When you publicize your feelings about politics, on one side or the other, you are alienating roughly half of your fan base. Stop it. They can have an opinion, but for their own good, they really need to keep it to themselves. When Dixie Chicks came out so publicly against Bush all those years ago, their careers pretty much came to a crashing halt, at least for a while. Just shut up, and do what you do best! Entertain us! I've started turning the radio when certain music is played just because of the artists' political agendas.

That's all!

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:34 am 
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Football is taking a bunch of political flak. Fuck that....I like football.

NASCAR's issues are not relevant to the NFL's.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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Louie wrote:
Football is taking a bunch of political flak. Fuck that....I like football.

NASCAR's issues are not relevant to the NFL's.


Yes they are. There's a lot of demographic crossover and where NASCAR became a refuge from the crap in the NFL, it is now migrating to NASCAR. Has been for several years. You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground.

Football has been taking political flak for going on a decade now. I've given my opinion on that over in HT often. Kass is correct. Limbaugh is correct. The NFL is dead, they just haven't got the memo yet.

I like football. I like racing.

I'm finding myself getting further and further away from both. I don't think I am atypical in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Games are played between the lines. Races are conducted between the catch fences. What happens outside those boundaries is over there.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Louie wrote:
Games are played between the lines. Races are conducted between the catch fences. What happens outside those boundaries is over there.


What happens outside those boundaries surrounds what goes on in there. Nothing is immune to those forces, as you put it, over there.

And for Duane....

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm illustrating how a lifelong football fan, and half of a lifetime race fan has fallen away from both sports. There is no joy here.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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I agree with what sportsgal posted.

I don't care about the NFL anymore because of politics, mainly, although their rules do factor in.

With NASCAR, it's more about their overbearing manipulation.


In BOTH CASES, the natural flow of events is altered too much for my tastes due to rules.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Last weekend in LA the the USC game drew more fans than the Rams and Chargers games combined. Of course that could be a case of giving the city 2 teams they did not want. If they had brought back the Raiders instead the game probably would have sold out.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:52 pm 
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JMB wrote:
Last weekend in LA the the USC game drew more fans than the Rams and Chargers games combined. Of course that could be a case of giving the city 2 teams they did not want. If they had brought back the Raiders instead the game probably would have sold out.



Might have something to do with the fact that USC won't be dropping off the key and moving to the first city that flashes it's tits at the Trojans. Leaving LA with with credit card up to its butt and 29 containers of spoiled Greek yogurt in the fridge.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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jlb wrote:
Something happened to kill all of that. And I think most people have their own idea of what happened, but I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that this idiotic playoff concept has something to do with most of everybody's take on how NASCAR fell so hard.


The something that happened is called the internet. There are a thousand more things to do today than there was 25 years ago. Today's generation is not going to invest a full day into going to the track and watching cars go in circles, especially at bigger tracks where long periods of time go by with nothing happening. The segments help with this somewhat.


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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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And the segment rules will be changed because Truex played their game better than the lack of forethought that came up with them.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:15 am 
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Bham wrote:
jlb wrote:
Something happened to kill all of that. And I think most people have their own idea of what happened, but I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that this idiotic playoff concept has something to do with most of everybody's take on how NASCAR fell so hard.


The something that happened is called the internet. There are a thousand more things to do today than there was 25 years ago. Today's generation is not going to invest a full day into going to the track and watching cars go in circles, especially at bigger tracks where long periods of time go by with nothing happening. The segments help with this somewhat.


It is not a coincidence that NASCAR's popularity peaked at the same time the Internet (read technology) was exploding exponentially. I put their peak somewhere in the time frame of mid 90's to early 2000's. About a ten year period. I don't think the Internet is the reason NASCAR fell on their face. I think it's part of the problem but not the central cause. They tried blaming the economy, but I started picking up on what I thought would become a trend, back around 2004. This was several years before the economy tanked. It was the dress and look of the people that were coming to races. They were, for lack of a better way to put it, prettier and more elegant people. This is also the time where we were all introduced to the lexicon known as the JOOONYER caution. Which morphed later into debris cautions.

NASCAR got a different class of people to the track, but then they never figured out a way to keep them there. Think cost, primarily. NASCAR, apparently now in hindsight, was a fad or a thrill ride for far to many of them. At the same time, folks who didn't quite make the type of money these newer folks were making could no longer afford to come to the track. These were a lot of the people that had NASCAR in their blood, for many of them it was a way of life. They didn't want those people and they made it clear that they were no longer welcome, and the primary mover was cost of attendance, and as you know with NASCAR, this quite often involves more than just loading up the car and heading on down to the track.

If they had introduced segment racing back in the late 90's, I would speculate that they would have done it without the artificial stoppages, akin to the old halfway leader award they used to do. It might have worked then. I don't see it working right now, but I also think stage racing is just the beginning. I also think it would have had a good chance of working because the old point system was in need of tweaking, at minimum. I remember having (and reading) discussions about awarding more points for wins, or points for leading at a certain (pre-determined) segment of the race. Lots of stuff like that was floating around out there in the e-sphere.

But they didn't do that. They didn't do any of that. They went for the cash and a half-assed erstwhile "playoff" gimmick. NASCAR has a tradition of not signing the front of the check. NASCAR signs the back of the check. And I can't escape that mentality when I see stage racing. And the usual suspects, the shills as I like to refer to them, they sing the same old song I heard even before this all became an issue. And those shills are why I don't tune in on Sirius anymore. It got sickening to listen to, because it always circled back to the circle of wagons around the PTB at Daytona.

And those shills, they always seemed to be talking down to their audience. Kind of like their task-masters at Daytona Beach headquarters.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:21 am 
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Today's generation isn't interested in 400 mile race formats. Eldora formats would be better. Heat races followed by LCQ and then a shorter feature.


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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:26 am 
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Bham wrote:
Today's generation isn't interested in 400 mile race formats. Eldora formats would be better. Heat races followed by LCQ and then a shorter feature.


No argument there... I'm not a fan of the 1.5'rs, they can get boring, but the stage helps those races even more then the ones on the shorter venues.. JMO

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Bham wrote:
Today's generation isn't interested in 400 mile race formats. Eldora formats would be better. Heat races followed by LCQ and then a shorter feature.


Have you seen Global Rallycross?

Short attention span theatre style racing with pretty cool cars and drivers. Established teams crossing over, big manfuctuer and sponsor support.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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Bham wrote:
Today's generation isn't interested in 400 mile race formats. Eldora formats would be better. Heat races followed by LCQ and then a shorter feature.


I believe you're probably right about that.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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Louie wrote:
Bham wrote:
Today's generation isn't interested in 400 mile race formats. Eldora formats would be better. Heat races followed by LCQ and then a shorter feature.


Have you seen Global Rallycross?

Short attention span theatre style racing with pretty cool cars and drivers. Established teams crossing over, big manfuctuer and sponsor support.


Bristol still has the drag strip. Short, fast and to the point.

Plus you tingle in places you didn't know you had :D

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:34 pm 
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jlb wrote:
Louie wrote:
Bham wrote:
Today's generation isn't interested in 400 mile race formats. Eldora formats would be better. Heat races followed by LCQ and then a shorter feature.


Have you seen Global Rallycross?

Short attention span theatre style racing with pretty cool cars and drivers. Established teams crossing over, big manfuctuer and sponsor support.


Bristol still has the drag strip. Short, fast and to the point.

Plus you tingle in places you didn't know you had :D



They don't corner worth a damn. Tight, tight, tight. :D

GRC Cars race on dirt, pavement and through the air in the same heat.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:30 am 
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sportsgal wrote:
I'm currently working to boycott ESPN in my own little world just because I DON'T CARE what they think about Trump.



ESPN is bleeding subscribers at an (for them) alarming rate. I believe that most of the enhanced packages that ISP's offer include ESPN, especially sports oriented TV packages. Depends on your ISP, and I say ISP because cable and internet services are, by and large, now attached at the hip. ESPN is the single most expensive channel in the TV/Cable bills you pay. I think $6.40 of every bill one pays to an ISP goes to ESPN. I don't know whether subs such as movie channels (HBO, Showtime, etc.) are classified in the same manner.

ESPN drives those sports packages. When you get rid of them, as a rule, you get rid of ESPN.

We loved ESPN back in the day, when they actually behaved like a sports channel. They've been going down hill for a long time. They are owned by Disney, btw.

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Louie wrote:
Games are played between the lines. Races are conducted between the catch fences. What happens outside those boundaries is over there.


Exactly what I have been trying to get across to these guys for ever!!!! I don't watch Football, but it isn't the politics, I don't care for it.. that's all... I watch NASCAR because I like it...I don't pay any attention to their politics either.... Thanks Louie, I didn't think you had it in ya... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
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I watch less and less football. Politics has more and more to do with that less and less.

On a somewhat related topic, does anybody have a link to a triple face-palm picture? :wave:

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Some people don't watch porn due to their principles.

Some go ahead and watch because they like what's on the screen, principles be damned.

And some only watch if their principals aren't around.


Some will get this. Some won't. :wave:

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:11 pm 
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I don't know about anybody else, but I'm pickin up what you're puttin down :wave:

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 Post subject: Re: How come....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:46 pm 
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RacerX wrote:
Some people don't watch porn due to their principles.

Some go ahead and watch because they like what's on the screen, principles be damned.

And some only watch if their principals aren't around.


Some will get this. Some won't. :wave:



No clue, but like I said...not into the politics side of racing...

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